Evolving with manufacturing and learning lessons with Chaz Schroeder

In This Episode

Learn more about X-Series USA

Learn more about Black River Group

Learn more about podcast sponsorship opportunities.

TRANSCRIPT

Chaz Schroeder: It was like a number eight brushed stainless that goes on the side of caskets as a decoration and inside hearses. I was like, that was the very first open-market job that we covered.

Lincoln Brunner: Really?

Dan Davis: That is such a metal fabricator answer.

Sara Spring: The team at X-Series provides expertly configured equipment and custom support to empower businesses of all sizes. X-Series products catalyze innovation and efficiency so that every manufacturer can achieve excellence. To learn more, visit structurallaser.com.

Dan Davis: Hello, I'm Dan Davis with the Fabricator Podcast. Thanks for joining us today. I'm joined by...

Lincoln Brunner: Lincoln Brunner of the Tube & Pipe Journal, and sometimes The Fabricator.

Dan Davis: Thanks for tuning in today. Today we'll be chatting with Chaz Schroeder of Black River Group in Mansfield, Ohio. Can you really tell I'm trying to think this through? And Chris Miano of X-Series, provider of machine tools to metal fabricating companies.

Lincoln Brunner: Yes.

Dan Davis: And pretty interesting conversation-

Lincoln Brunner: Very.

Dan Davis: ... with Chaz, Black River Group. It started three generations ago as a printing company, and does a lot of work with retailers for merchandising, and as a result, have a lot of neat processes and we'll get into that.

Gareth Sleger: And they started with installing internet into Mansfield's area.

Dan Davis: Seriously.

Gareth Sleger: Weird trajectory.

Lincoln Brunner: The serious amount of just hardcore entrepreneurship in that family.

Dan Davis: Yeah, and the company once again, Mansfield, Ohio actually got its start working with an appliance maker, Westinghouse, in Mansfield at the time. And Mansfield's home of not only that, but also the prison from Shawshank Redemption. And whereas I think one day Mansfield is once associated with manufacturing might... Still is, but now when people show up to town, odds are they're asking for directions to the prison where this movie was filmed.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah.

Dan Davis: We're discussing this because there's a little bit of a controversy in the internet world as to how our friend-

Gareth Sleger: Tim Robbins. Andy Dufresne.

Dan Davis: ... got out of there. And apparently, some people online don't believe you can be able to get out of a prison with a rock. Cracking a cast iron pipe open with a rock. Maybe it's steel, I'm not sure.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah

Gareth Sleger: Well, he spent years carving out that hole in his prison cell wall to get through, and then he gets to the point where he meets this big iron-

Lincoln Brunner: Pipe, yes.

Gareth Sleger: ... pipe and just busts through it with a rock in a matter of minutes.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah. Well, there's a number of arguments that could be made. It could be one of those cheaply resourced pipes that the prison system didn't want to spring for a good pipe so they bought a cheap one. Or he had that amazing rush of adrenaline that an escaped prisoner would have that give him the Incredible Hulk strength to bust through the pipe. Who knows?

Gareth Sleger: Either. I feel like that would be easier than having to crawl through, what do they say? Five hundred yards of sewage.

Lincoln Brunner: Crap.

Gareth Sleger: Yeah.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah.

Gareth Sleger: I mean, how do you breathe?

Lincoln Brunner: Through your mouth.

Gareth Sleger: Right. But I mean... Well, okay.

Lincoln Brunner: Again. Not getting into too many details, but it would be awful, hence his vomiting midway through.

Gareth Sleger: Yes.

Dan Davis: Having seen this movie once and I delayed it for a long time because I have a phobia of prison movies, I will say that it was-

Lincoln Brunner: Understandable.

Dan Davis: This did not come up as I was watching the movie like, hey, how did he get from there? I don't know. I guess I was one to kind of accept certain things happening in movies and don't really want to question everything.

Lincoln Brunner: And you really want him to get out, especially once he's in the sewer pipe.

Dan Davis: I think that's kind of the point, right?

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah.

Dan Davis: Yeah.

Gareth Sleger: And he really had to trust the fact that that pipe was going to be big enough for him to fit through for 500 yards?

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah.

Dan Davis: Yeah, anyway. Honestly, if it wasn't big enough, I think he'd just elongated himself so he could fit.

Gareth Sleger: So Dan, your phobia of prisons or prison movies?

Dan Davis: Yeah. Well, the whole thing is why does anybody want to watch stuff about prisons, man? They talk about prisons as being used to rehabilitate people. I got news for you. I avoid certain activities so I don't have to go to prison.

Gareth Sleger: Most people do though.

Dan Davis: Don't need to scare me straight, I'm scared.

Gareth Sleger: Dan woke up scared straight.

Dan Davis: Yeah, I don't want any piece of it.

Lincoln Brunner: No. The fear of God is already in this man.

Dan Davis: The best I could hope for, like that whole phrase, "Country club prisons," even club fed scares me. There's going to be some accountant on some kind of embezzlement rat with a beef to take out on him.

Gareth Sleger: This conversation you can go in a lot of different directions.

Dan Davis: Yeah. I'm just telling you. All right, well that's fair.

Lincoln Brunner: Thankfully Andy took this to the right place, right?

Dan Davis: Yes.

Gareth Sleger: Yeah. And somehow find a way to cut through. How many inches of steel do you think that is?

Lincoln Brunner: It's about a one-inch wall thickness steel pipe. It's formidable.

Gareth Sleger: No, he had to break it then he had to create a big enough hole to crawl through. There's a lot of questions.

Lincoln Brunner: It could have been rusted.

Dan Davis: Well, you have the questions. How many times have you seen a movie?

Gareth Sleger: Several, I love this movie.

Dan Davis: But you don't get hung up on this, do you?

Gareth Sleger: I do. I do get hung up on that part.

Lincoln Brunner: The pipe could have been very corroded from years of neglect.

Gareth Sleger: True. Yeah.

Lincoln Brunner: It was underneath the prison. The warden was too busy killing people and defrauding others to go tend to a sewer.

Gareth Sleger: True. He wasn't worried about the infrastructure.

Lincoln Brunner: Correct. I think I'm going to run with that theory.

Gareth Sleger: And it came back to bite him in the butt in the long run.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah, you could say that. Or the head.

Gareth Sleger: Yes.

Dan Davis: All right. We all settled?

Gareth Sleger: Dan is very uncomfortable with this prison conversation.

Dan Davis: I don't know man. I enjoyed the movie, but it's just...

Lincoln Brunner: Once.

Dan Davis: Yeah, it's like I feel... I'm glad the guy got out and everybody got their just deserts in the movie, but it was very stressful. Yeah, I don't know. I kind of like a little entertainment in my films.

Gareth Sleger: It's so weird.

Dan Davis: I don't know how much entertainment's in a prison.

Gareth Sleger: So next you have to watch Green Mile.

Dan Davis: I don't want to watch Green Mile. Know what happens. Really, Stephen King, that's a whole nother thing.

Gareth Sleger: Yeah.

Dan Davis: I don't need Stephen King. I'm scared enough. All right, on that note, this podcast episode will not be scary. It'll be intelligent, it'll be engaging. You'll learn a lot. Yeah. So you'll enjoy this episode of the Fabricator Podcast with Chaz Schroeder of the Black River Group and also Chris Miano of X-Series and thank you to Chris and X-Series for sponsoring it. So enjoy.

Sara Spring: Say goodbye to the limitations of plasma cutting with the Plate Laser Plus from X-Series. Boasting up to a 40 kilowatt fiber laser power source, for precision and speed, it delivers up to 10 times the productivity of traditional methods. High performance and low cost make the Plate Laser Plus the perfect choice for your fabrication business. Visit structurallaser.com for more information and to learn more about what X-Series calls equipment without compromise. And now back to the episode.

Dan Davis: Hey, welcome back to The Fabricator Podcast, here Chaz and Chris. Chaz from Black River Group, Mansfield, Ohio.

Chaz Schroeder: Yes, sir.

Dan Davis: Give us a little bit idea of what your company's all about, how it gets started. Because I think your company's origin story is pretty good.

Chaz Schroeder: Yeah, it's definitely a unique one. So back in the mid '60s, my grandfather was working for a printing operation, commercial printer in Mansfield, Ohio. He decided that he wanted to take over that business when the current owner decided to retire. So he moved it across town, started to build it up and increase their capabilities as a printer. One day, one of his clients, which is a large pump manufacturer in Mansfield, which still exists today, Gorman-Rupp company. The owner came to him and said, "Hey, would you guys be willing to place some print media for me?" And you'd have to know my grandfather, but just the kind of man that he was before he even understood what was being asked. He's like, "Absolutely, I can do that for you."

Lincoln Brunner: Ready for anything.

Chaz Schroeder: So yeah, so he calls a publication, says, "Hey, I want to place this media for this company." And they said, "Well, what's your agency name?" And he's like, "What?" "What's your agency name?" "Well, I don't have an agency." So back then you actually had to be an advertising agency to buy and place media. So that's how we got into advertising, became an advertising marketing agency, was based off of that request from one of his printing clients.

Dan Davis: Wow.

Chaz Schroeder: So he finds a couple of guys that are marketeers and have been in advertising. They start up an agency and then over the next 10, 15 years, they start to build out the creative in the advertising, continuing to do commercial printing at the same time. We get to probably the early '80s, my father and his business partner get involved in the company and they continue to increase capabilities, get into photography, video production, and editing. You get into the early '90s, and my grandfather heard about this thing called the internet. What's the internet at that point in time? So he decides to become an internet provider and brought the internet to Richland County, Ohio.

Dan Davis: Wow.

Chaz Schroeder: Just a small company at that time. I think while he had it, dial-up was still a thing, right.

Lincoln Brunner: Oh, yeah.

Dan Davis: We're going to insert that noise from AOL.

Chaz Schroeder: So when we got into, or when he got into being an internet provider, then we get into website design and website programming. To, once again, round out the marketing and advertising. So fast-forward late '90s, early 2000s, my dad and his business partner are getting a lot of requests all of a sudden for in-store, creative, point of sale, display concepts, merchandising concepts on the creative side. So they're doing all this work and what they're noticing is that their clients are taking our creative concepts to manufacturers. The manufacturers aren't really hitting the mark as far as taking what we concepted and getting it into at point of sale accurately, correctly. And what was happening is that the brand was breaking down or the branding that we were doing through these concepts was breaking down. So my dad and his business partner are looking at this and, "Well, what if we dip our toe into the manufacturing part and try to control more of this so that our clients are getting a better result?" So they started out small. Started to broker some stuff, brought on a single fabricator in a small shop in town, started doing the prototypes for some of this stuff in-house, and then it just kind of snowballed from there. We started to get more looks at manufacturing, which led to more creative, which got our name out there more. And so from there we kind of built out a wood shop, fully functional wood shop, got into large format digital printing because that's kind of where that space was going at the time. And then we continually have been building out our metal fabrication as well. Which the last couple of steps that we've taken has been with this guy, is in acquiring a flat sheet and tube laser internally.

Dan Davis: Wow, so you got a 175,000 square foot shop?

Chaz Schroeder: Correct.

Dan Davis: So is that done with the intention of growing or do you need that much space to fab this stuff?

Chaz Schroeder: So roughly half of that is manufacturing space. We do a lot of warehousing for our clients, which is something that a lot of people in our space aren't doing. They'll build you your display, but after they build it, they want nothing to do with it.

Lincoln Brunner: Up to you to store it.

Chaz Schroeder: Yeah.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah.

Dan Davis: That's interesting.

Chaz Schroeder: So we're like, all right, well we already are doing fulfillment on the print side, we can do the same thing on the display side as well, and we've got the room to do it.

Dan Davis: Wow, that's interesting.

Chaz Schroeder: Early on when we had the web capabilities, we were doing custom websites to help do inventory tracking and ordering stuff to go along with it as well.

Lincoln Brunner: You just kind of brought that in-house.

Chaz Schroeder: Right, yeah.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah.

Dan Davis: So how did things change with the pandemic?

Chaz Schroeder: Well, obviously, retail got hit hard.

Dan Davis: Yeah.

Chaz Schroeder: And luckily, two of our largest clients are outdoor power equipment.

Dan Davis: Okay.

Chaz Schroeder: Motorcycles, Honda, Kawasaki.

Dan Davis: Okay, yeah.

Chaz Schroeder: So, obviously, outdoors was where everyone went during the pandemic, so they went like gangbusters, which helped us out a lot. But some of our other clients who are very heavily retail based, it was hard. So there was some good things and some bad things that came along with it. The one thing that we came away with is we need to diversify our offering and not be so dependent on the retail space. So we're like, let's bring on some additional capabilities so that we can maybe get into small to medium run contracts, part manufacturing, and then look at some of these other high-end one-off projects that are floating around out there, especially in hospitality and some of the custom areas.

Dan Davis: Yeah.

Lincoln Brunner: And that's of course where you ended up crossing paths with this guy over here.

Chaz Schroeder: Yeah, so as soon as we're like, the one thing that we need to have in-house is we need to get a laser. We had a cutting solution. It was a plasma table. It did great for the time that we had it, but we needed to take the step-up. So we started looking for a laser manufacturer to partner with, and we came across Chris at X-Series and he spent a lot of time with us, educating us, letting us know what he thought we needed. It definitely lined up with what we thought we needed and he spent more time talking to us and making sure that we had what we needed than anyone else that we had talked to previously. So we're like, "Let's give him a shot."

Dan Davis: Chris, how do you determine what product works well for the fabricator?

Chris Miano: Definitely asking a lot of questions, seeing their process, asking them about their end goal, the end goal or their vision. Because there's plenty of competition, there's plenty of providers that are all, you got the higher end that do things really, really well with automation and they're just streamlined machines. And then you got the lower end that, surprisingly so, they still do stuff pretty well. So basically, asking the customer about their products, where they want to go, and just making sure that no rock's uncovered from that perspective. Otherwise, it'll come to bite you in the end because our machine will do what it'll do, but we need to configure it correctly.

Dan Davis: How much wattage did you have for the flat laser you got?

Chaz Schroeder: We're at a 6K.

Dan Davis: 6K, and how large of a table?

Chaz Schroeder: 5 by 10.

Dan Davis: And from that standpoint, did you buy that first or did you get your other laser as well at the same time?

Chaz Schroeder: We had the flat sheet first, and then we were doing a lot of tube design as well and buying a lot of that out. And once we understood what their product offering was in the tube laser, it was an easy next step for us to go down that path and discover, okay, here's what they have. Do we think it'll work for us? And the machine that we got from them, it's such a large gamut of capabilities. We're like, "Yeah, this is the machine for us."

Dan Davis: So just before we jump onto the 3D cutting machine, the 2D cutting machine, what type of materials and thicknesses are going on there?

Chaz Schroeder: Most of the time we're 18, 16, 14 gauge, quarter inch and three eights in the plate.

Dan Davis: Okay.

Chaz Schroeder: Now, once we brought that flat sheet on and people heard that we had it, all of a sudden we're getting a lot of quotes to cut stainless out of nowhere.

Dan Davis: Wow.

Chaz Schroeder: I would say the open market jobs that we've looked at, 85, 90% of them have all been stainless jobs.

Lincoln Brunner: No kidding. For what kind of end uses?

Chaz Schroeder: Actually, one of the more unique ones is they have, it was like a number eight brushed stainless that goes on the side of caskets as a decoration and inside hearses. That was the very first open market job that we cut.

Lincoln Brunner: Really?

Dan Davis: That is such a metal fabricator answer. You had a scorecard of possible applications, that was not on my list of choices.

Lincoln Brunner: Well, I'm looking on the back side. I'm not finding it there either.

Chaz Schroeder: There's another company down in Columbus, Ohio, and they do mostly exhibits and displays like one-off type stuff for like museums and parks. And I don't know exactly specifically what the projects are, but they gave us, or they've given us a couple quotes for 16, 18 all the way up to three sixteens stainless to cut.

Dan Davis: Oh, wow.

Chaz Schroeder: So it's just weird how we had very little exposure to stainless and then we get the laser and then all of a sudden all these opportunities flood in for that.

Dan Davis: So 6K kind of a good fit for a company like Black River Group, Chris?

Chris Miano: Yeah, it is. Laser's on a trajectory up as far as power and flexibility within that power and affordability within that power as well.

Dan Davis: Of course, yeah.

Chris Miano: So most contract manufacturers want to buy what they can afford, as much as you can afford-

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah, give me the 24K.

Chris Miano: ... considering if they have the power to run it. But yeah, 6K, I mean you could cut up to one inch, I mean steel. Up to half inch to three-quarter stainless, depending on what your thought process is on the edge finish. But yeah, I mean gauge material up to one inch plate, it covers a wide variety.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah.

Dan Davis: What's the mix of work on there? Is it mostly the contract stuff? Is it still some of the merchandising stuff?

Chaz Schroeder: I mean at the moment, mostly the displays and merchandising stuff, but in the past two months, the open market cutting is starting to eat into that as well.

Dan Davis: Wow.

Chaz Schroeder: So if you look at our area, I think within 30, 40 miles of us, there's one 8K. Everyone else is at a three or four.

Dan Davis: No kidding.

Chaz Schroeder: So we're at the top end locally where we're at. And we picked the 6K knowing what we needed internally, but also knowing that we were going to be one of the bigger lasers in our area as well.

Dan Davis: Wow.

Lincoln Brunner: And it sounds like it allowed you the space, at least mentally, to grow your product offerings.

Chaz Schroeder: Absolutely.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah.

Chaz Schroeder: Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Davis: When it comes to nesting for trying to balance the contract work with your own needs for the merchandising, how's that work and is it better to maximize material usage? Because you can, I assume volume comes with some of the contract work.

Chaz Schroeder: So, so far this year the way that our workflow has been, everything's kind of lined up perfectly. So when we've not been busy with displays and merchandising, the contract works come in and vice versa. So we haven't run into a situation yet where I've had to nest contract market cutting over here with the display work. Now I'm sure at some point we'll get into that and I think some of that will just have to be us working on our internal process and trying to understand what that looks like more. I think the other thing is that's going to be a little bit challenging for us at least initially, is we're usually working in carbon and a lot of this other work's been stainless, so we'll have to navigate that as it comes.

Dan Davis: When it comes to the merchandising work, is that done per job or do you have multiple jobs going on at the same time?

Chaz Schroeder: It's typically per job, but since we use 16 a lot, there have been a few opportunities where we've been able to nest multiple jobs in the same sheet and optimize our cutting that way.

Dan Davis: Cool. Now the other, what led to the purchase of the 3D cutting machine?

Chaz Schroeder: Right.

Dan Davis: And just more requests for tube and-

Chaz Schroeder: Yes, I would say probably five years ago, for one reason, I would say the first 10 to 12 years of the display business, the manufacturing part, wood was huge for us. So initially we built out our wood shop more than we did in our metal fabrication. After that 10 to 12 years, it seemed like, at least for us, for one reason or another, there was a shift where it was moving away from wood and more into metal. And Honda Motorcycle and Kawasaki played a big role in that with what they were looking for. So specifically with those two, there was a lot of tube integrated in those designs. A lot of miter folding in our designs as well. So to be able to get them the best bang for their buck, we are like, all right, well let's put this on a tube laser. And then that volume's continued to pick up over time. And then the other thing is too is, there's a lot of automotive manufacturing in our area and a lot of specifically exhaust type components. So well, once again, we're already doing this stuff on the display side. We know that there's opportunities outside of that in our area, so what makes sense for us from a machine capability standpoint? So that's our mindset when we were getting into this profiling machine or the 3D machine.

Lincoln Brunner: Oh, Chaz just listening to you talk about that move even from 2D to 3D laser, it's just a bigger shift-

Chaz Schroeder: Absolutely.

Lincoln Brunner: ... than some people might realize, but you do. It just seems like within the Schroeder family, you've got just this amazing entrepreneurial spirit where you look at an opportunity and say, well, why not? Is that kind of the way it's been?

Chaz Schroeder: Yeah, I mean, I think, my grandfather was very, he was just out there. My brother and I are kind of out there, but we're a little bit more reserved than he was. But I think it's-

Chris Miano: Sure about that?

Lincoln Brunner: You get an eyewitness here to the whole process.

Chaz Schroeder: I think that, we're going to be lifelong students, that's how we look at everything. And if there's an opportunity out there and we're confident that we can make it work, we're going to at least try.

Dan Davis: Yeah.

Chaz Schroeder: That's really cool. And it seems like, at least to me, over the last 10 to 15 years, markets and industries have been changing so fast that we feel if we're not on the front edge of it, then we're going to get left behind. And we've been in situations like that and had to play catch up. So we're trying to be forward-thinking enough that we can stay on that front edge and not have to play that catch up.

Dan Davis: Yeah. What was the example of you falling behind?

Chaz Schroeder: In the advent of digital photography.

Dan Davis: Okay.

Chaz Schroeder: And-

Lincoln Brunner: Got a lot of people by surprise, actually.

Chaz Schroeder: So we had a professional photo studio and we're doing a lot of retouching and stuff on our own. You got digital photography equipment came down in price. You got a lot of freelancers who entered the market during certain economic times. A lot of our corporate clients were trying to slash budgets. Well, marketing's always one of the first things that they slash. So instead of coming to us, they're going to freelancers. And when a lot of that happened, obviously that work left us. But the other thing that we saw that would happen is these freelancers, and nothing against people who freelance, but the technical nature and understanding that we had as an agency was lost on some of these freelancers because everyone was just looking for a cheap solution. So over time, we've seen that skill and that knowledge base start to erode. And because we didn't switch gears and go into other things like building out our web capabilities more, we fell behind in that. So it's like, all right, we lost this revenue. Where do we go to make that revenue up and to get into something new?

Dan Davis: Wow. So with the move to tube and even doing some structural, how did you not avoid just getting a tube cutter because the machinery you bought offers some really nice flexibility?

Chaz Schroeder: Right. I think part of it was us just rolling the dice saying, we think we can do this. Part of it was our inquisitive nature and wanting to constantly learn new things. Once again, we're students and wanting to bring... It's part of a value proposition, so we're never going to be the cheapest, we probably won't be the most expensive. We're going to be somewhere in the middle and for what we provide, we're going to bring you the highest value. In order to bring that value at that price point that we're at, we felt that the laser was going to help us do that.

Dan Davis: Yeah. And Chris, can you describe what Black River Group purchased?

Chris Miano: Yes, sir. Yeah, they bought what we used to call the T350, which is our 350 millimeter diameter, 24 foot infeed tube laser that can cut all the way down to three-quarter diameter, or three-quarter square.

Lincoln Brunner: Wow.

Chris Miano: So the range of capability from doing small little notched out bent retail type fixture parts to a C12 by 20 stringer for a residential or a commercial stair project and the handrail to go along with it, whether it be cable rail or grab rail and angle channel, flat bar even. There's a lot of flexibility and simplicity to that machine. So actually, we can attest to their attention to detail and capability on custom fabrication work. We just did a show at the NASCC down in Texas that's a structural trade show. And we had a booth planned and we were going to do kind the mainstream, like buy this from here, and it's kind of chintzy looking, but good enough. And we talked to them knowing what they do, for some advice, and they're like, "Hey, we could help you, kind of take a look at this." And we had an idea for a container being the centerpiece and throwing everything in that container because it just helps with the logistics of everything. And I mean, we conceptualize something pretty quick. They came back to us with an awesome rendering that was kind of spot-on which what we were thinking. And I mean, this is a month and a half before the show. And basically we agreed on the rendering a month before the show. They fabricated this, we should provide you the pictures, this whole thing in about two and a half weeks, that most people couldn't turn around in a half a year. And the attention to detail when we're unpacking it with instructions, logistics. We had four of these corner displays that, I mean, they were displaying our flex laser, our Rail Blazer, and these are machines for the structural miscellaneous fabric.

Lincoln Brunner: Right, right.

Chris Miano: Here's plate laser plus plate laser max, and they have their own reason for being niche in that market. And-

Dan Davis: This boot is actual structural parts, that made up this boot, yeah.

Chris Miano: Yeah, so they made this flex laser corner feature, that is this big fabrication that has I-beams going through it, plate that connects and slots and tabs, HSS tubing with miters on it, that slot and tab. Frames with lighting. They clear coat powder coated the steel so it had this industrial look to it. We just basically said, "Hey, if you could do it out of stuff that you cut on our machine, maybe it would be cool, but I know it's too quick." And all of a sudden we're pulling this thing, we couldn't even get it out. It took four of us to just slide it up front and we borrowed a forklift to get it out. And I mean, this fabrication is 12 feet high and we have four of these corner features that are just, the welds are nice, everything. And it spoke to what we do better than we could even achieve. And I mean, it came with instructions. So we're just looking at each other like, can you freaking believe this? I mean, we saw it. We saw it on paper, saw pictures of it, but just the attention to detail and that just speaks to them as a company. No graphic design company can turn something like that around. No fabricator could conceptualize anything like that. And to turn all that around with logistical instructions, it speaks to what these guys are capable of-

Lincoln Brunner: In two and a half weeks.

Dan Davis: Yeah. How close is that to working with your merchandise customers? I realize retail, they're pretty demanding.

Chaz Schroeder: Sure. That was a lot like some prototype stages with some people because, so for instance, a lot of our clients work in big box. So if Home Depot or Lowe's calls you and you get the opportunity to sell in, they need a prototype like right now. So it's not unusual for us to get a fairly large project and have a very small timeline to execute that project in the prototype stage. This was a little bigger, a little bit bigger than a lot of those opportunities, but we are used to turning stuff fairly quickly a handful of times a year. So it's not out of the question. It's not something that we do a lot, but it's not something that we aren't used to.

Dan Davis: What is the lead time for projects you typically work on?

Chaz Schroeder: Typically, I mean, depending on size, we're running anywhere from six to eight weeks. And I think now that we have the cutting solutions in-house, we're going to cut that timeline down further from that. And this was another reason that we went with X-Series, or we're even looking for a lasers is, after COVID hit, all of our laser vendors around us were so busy that our lead times were like 10, 12 weeks just to get the parts from them.

Dan Davis: Wow.

Lincoln Brunner: Sure.

Chaz Schroeder: And it was just killing our cash flow.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah, yeah.

Chaz Schroeder: So we're like, all right, that was another reason why we pushed so hard to bring laser cutting in-house.

Lincoln Brunner: Right. I mean, it speaks to the usefulness of being such a broad-based company with such a wide range of capabilities. But when you're looking at the next thing, I mean, what's the thought process? What's the strategic mindset that you and your brother are taken to the business when you're looking at new capabilities such as the tube laser?

Chaz Schroeder: Sure. I mean, I think where do we think the industry's going? What's the next big thing? What are we interested in? Do we think that there's a market for these things? That all plays into it. And I think the other thing is too, is what's a natural extension of the things that we're already doing? And I think at least the last couple of years, everything that we've invested in has been kind of in that natural extension of what we're currently doing. So the other thing that we bought last year that's kind of related but unrelated is we got an acrylic laser. We do a lot of acrylic cutting on the creative side and the graphic side. And it's something that we've been buying out for years and we're like, finally, it's like we've got a couple of jobs where we're consistently doing acrylic cutting, let's bring that in. Because those CO2 lasers have come down in price, and it's something that we already understand the process. We understand CNC control machinery, the interfaces are very easy. So we brought that in and started doing that as well.

Lincoln Brunner: And for a lot of this kind of, I don't want to say perspective, but you're taking a bit of a risk, right?

Chaz Schroeder: Right.

Lincoln Brunner: But I mean, for a lot of people, the fear factor is just a deal breaker with all that. What makes Black River different in that respect?

Chaz Schroeder: I think it's just mindset, honestly. You have to be able to push beyond the fear. The amount of discomfort you're willing to tolerate is equal to the amount of potential and growth that you can achieve. So that's kind of how we approach everything in that space. And I think a lot of that is just kind of genetics too, coming from my grandfather and my father as well.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah, sure.

Chris Miano: I think there is something to that.

Lincoln Brunner: Oh yeah, for sure. I mean as you've been watching this, Chris, what has been your impression of their mindset when it comes to doing business and reaching for the next thing?

Chris Miano: Yeah, I think there's a dedication, basically a passion to be better. They strive to be better. I've seen a lot of companies, especially through the recession, through COVID, through whatever, and flexibility is key, determination is key. They put in long hours. They try to learn different techniques like 3D software, design, not only design, but design for manufacturing functionality. They're students of the game. And I think complacency is not in their forte. So it's probably genetic, but also, and there's something... I mean, if you met his brother, you'd see the same type of thing, but using the gifts that God gave him and working hard towards the end goal of the vision but not being satisfied, but enjoying the process. Because everybody that works for them, with them, has kind of the same vibe, and that's a contagious vibe that they got in that company. So it's neat to see it all unfold. And the future is obviously bright. My advice to them is diversification and paying attention to those things like 3D, design, getting in front of AI, just understanding how to work with the tools. And I mean, machine tools are, everybody wants a tube laser and the first thing I got to tell them is that part, you can't make those parts. You got to design those parts. This machine doesn't do those parts. The design does those parts, and then you're going to maybe have to understand that. And 90% of the people we deal with don't have the capacity. They're going to trade schools and trying to find that 3D designer for manufacturing purposes. And that's not easy either. So I would love to sell these machines to everybody, but these machines are not for everybody. The flat laser on that effect is a little easier, but a profile laser is definitely, you need to have design capability.

Chaz Schroeder: Yeah, it's definitely multiple steps above that flat sheet.

Dan Davis: Do you think your experience doing work with wood and other non-flat material kind of gave you a leg up compared to maybe somebody starting out just with a tube laser?

Chaz Schroeder: I think so. I mean, if you just look at the creative process coming from the advertising and marketing side, we've always, unlike most manufacturers or engineers, we kind of let the creative process be the driver of everything. And then we will look at, okay, here's the visual facsimile or where we want to be. How do we get there from an engineering standpoint? What materials do we use? What processes do we use? And we're always looking and fine-tuning those materials, those processes, those capabilities to get to that creative facsimile of what we've come up with.

Dan Davis: Oh, that's cool.

Lincoln Brunner: Ah, nice. Nice.

Chaz Schroeder: So it's kind of backwards from how a lot of people work.

Lincoln Brunner: Right, for sure.

Chaz Schroeder: Being a job shop manufacturer too, the other thing that we're always doing is how do we take the in-house capabilities that we have and do stuff with them that most people aren't doing? So I've got this job, it's got a need. We don't technically have something in-house that'll fill that need to make that, but is there something here that we can modify? Can we create a fixture? Can we do something to get to where we need to be? And I'll give you an example. We did a display for a railing manufacturer, and we had these four-by-four pieces of poplar that we had to drill a thirty-degree angle through. Well, we were like, can we build a fixture and put it up on our CNC router? However, the problem was is that our gantry didn't allow enough space. So we're looking at it, and we noticed that on the backside of the frame rails, there was a pocket outside of the machining area. And one of our guys was like, "Well, what if we built a fixture and we put it down in that pocket and then we light in the machine and have it drill outside of the machining area?" And we're like, "That might be crazy enough to work." So we build a fixture, we figure a way to bolt it onto the frame rail. Our programmer goes in, he lies to the machine. The machine goes out there and drills the holes. And it worked. I mean, it wasn't anything that the manufacturer would suggest. And our salespeople from the manufacturer that we talked to, we sent them a video of that and they go, "How the hell did you guys do that?"

Lincoln Brunner: It wasn't designed to do that.

Chaz Schroeder: Yeah, their head software guy's like, "How did you program it to do that?"

Lincoln Brunner: We lied to the machine.

Chaz Schroeder: Yeah.

Lincoln Brunner: Nice.

Chaz Schroeder: So it's just, once again, it's like we're taking that creative mindset and then applying it to the manufacturing process as well.

Lincoln Brunner: Absolutely.

Dan Davis: How do you set up the workflow? Do you have a specific part of the company where people are just involved with creative, then you meet with the shop floor design people?

Chaz Schroeder: Right. So depending on the client and the situation, it comes a little bit differently. But, excuse me, a lot of times we have a client come to us and say, "Look, we have this product. We want it to go in the sales channel. We got this budget. Here's some other criteria. What can you do for us?" So we'll start out, we'll sit down, we'll have a creative meeting. We'll run through everything, and then our artists will come back with a couple of different renderings. We put it in front of the client, they'll give us feedback, and then we'll start to do ballpark pricing based on sometimes different options. "Here's a wood facsimile, here's sheet metal, here's a combination of them. Here's dimensional headers, here's lighting." Get to a point where everyone's happy. Then we go to prototype, and then from there we'll get our order, and then it's our project managers. We'll work it through the manufacturing process on the floor.

Dan Davis: How many people do you have working for you?

Chaz Schroeder: I think 32 to 35 people at the moment.

Dan Davis: No kidding, wow.

Lincoln Brunner: So fairly small shop then.

Chaz Schroeder: We're pretty lean. And a lot of that is a lot of the work that we've done is to optimize our manufacturing process on our floor. Because there was times when, and we were doing a higher workload at the time, but we were up to like 112 people at one point in time. But we didn't have a lot of the processes put in place that we do today that allow us to be a lot more efficient. We've invested in a lot more machinery, a lot more software. We upgraded our ERP system a few years back, which was one of the biggest things that we've done in our company.

Dan Davis: No kidding.

Chaz Schroeder: Yeah. So some of that is just difference in work flow. Some of it's different in clientele and the things that we're doing. Some of it is based on the market right now as well.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah. So I'm interested in maybe what's next for you guys in terms of your dreams, your aspirations, what's going on right now that you can reveal?

Chaz Schroeder: I think, so last year we brought on the laser capabilities. We redid our website. I think the other thing that we want to do starting more this year is get a lot more robust in our social media presence. And try to take some of these specialty projects that we're doing and some of the not typical manufacturing techniques, and really get that out in front of people to kind of showcase some of the creative abilities and solutions that we have. That's one of the things that we haven't paid enough attention to internally. And then I think really just looking for those unique opportunities to bring in to try to build our portfolio and to push ourselves. Once again, we're always looking for the next cool thing to do. And that's one of the things that we really enjoyed about doing their trade show booth is it was a really tight timeline.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah, very.

Chaz Schroeder: So we had to be on our game and we had to be pushing the whole time. But the creative part of it was cool too. So when him and Chris Henry were in town to visit, they saw a display that we did for Kawasaki. They had a light box on it. So they said that they liked that. When they said, "Hey, can you guys do this trade show booth for us?" I was like, all right, well, they like that light box. How can I integrate that creatively into something that fits with their customer and who they're going after? So one night at my kitchen table, I sketched out the rough plan for those light box fixtures that they put in the four corners of their trade show booth.

Dan Davis: Yeah.

Lincoln Brunner: Very cool.

Dan Davis: So Chris, do you see X-Series finding more customers like Chaz?

Chris Miano: Yeah.

Dan Davis: Or is it a mix between just serving traditional metal fab clients as well?

Chris Miano: Well, no, definitely the variety. So value for the spend with... Our goal is to be the industry's best service. I mean, we're doing well, but we got a long way to go. And we feel that the bar was set really low in the last, through COVID and before that, just finding skilled talent applications and service people is not an easy job. It's not an easy job to do when you're nationwide, and you got to travel a little bit. So we've built a great service company and that is what we offer. But the machinery portfolio is, I mean, the advancements are so vast in such a short amount of time that are you buying a laser for a 20-year investment like you did 10 years ago? Or is this more of the technology advancing you got to be kind up in your game every five years? And we're speaking to that faster ROI. I mean, whether it's manufacturing in China, Europe, America, it's more, what is it going to do from a flexibility standpoint, from a versatility standpoint, how simply serviceable is it and how much of those smart features are on these things? So that's how we aligned our equipment. I mean, that's how we work with our manufacturers to modify research and develop new techniques on these equipment. And that's our future. So what we're looking at right now, I mean for customer base is we've brought laser to structural. I mean, we're not the only ones, but the advancement in laser capability to replace plasma as a process it's apparent. I mean, if you aren't realizing the capabilities, why would you buy a plasma? Laser is finally reached that point where you're really scratching your head on why you would buy a plasma. And it's based on affordability as well. And so all those dynamics, a 30, 40, 60 kilowatt laser is not something that you just plug and play or DIY. So the service team has to be vast. But we are, that's what we're known for right now, is bringing laser structural, whether it's profiles, plate processing. And obviously the more power you got, you could cut quarter inch aluminum pretty fast. So I mean exponentially fast. So the sheet metal world is also benefiting from that. And the job shops are having to rethink their six kilowatt. You know what I mean? Next step up is more power and speaking to a faster turnaround time.

Dan Davis: Right.

Chaz Schroeder: Right.

Lincoln Brunner: And also... I'm sorry.

Dan Davis: Oh no, I was just going to say you just came back from that structural steel show.

Chris Miano: Right.

Dan Davis: Did you have a lot of conversations with folks that maybe had never considered laser cutting before?

Chris Miano: Oh yeah. So funny story, last year we were at that show with the same kind of concept, and we'd been pushing on this for the last year and a half as far as bringing laser structural. Because we've developed these profile machines that kind of tap into that miscellaneous and a little bit into the heavier structural stuff and then the plate processing. And the name of the machines was typical naming conventions and machines, the T350, the 1530HP, or 24HP, just like everybody does.

Lincoln Brunner: Right.

Chris Miano: And we realized about, basically it was October, November, like, hey, they're just not getting it. And I mean, they get it, but they don't think it's for them.

Lincoln Brunner: They're not intrinsically understanding the capability or the application.

Chris Miano: Right. So with the advancement, I mean during this time from six months ago there's been more updates in capability with high-power laser. And results coming through that are just going more towards plasma being obsolete someday or for some aspect of it. And so we said, "Hey, we got to name these right." So we came up with the Rail Blazer because it's a machine that can do handrail and stair stringers, and it kind of speaks to that miscellaneous fabricator. Even though it's a laser and it's a plate machine, we call it the Plate Lazer with a Z just to be a little more different. And that derived from the Rail Blazer and we presented this and then the Flex Laser for the bigger one. And we have other products, welding and other things that are in the mix coming out. And we did our own little graphic design. That was kind of cool, we thought. And we brought these to Chaz and Austin and they have some real talented people, and they turned around a few options for us on what the logo is going to look like. And it was like, wow, let's go that direction. So in a long way of saying it, that show was a success because of that. It was very clear, the logo was on point. It has a laser beam. Everything that we present kind of focuses in on its capabilities.

Lincoln Brunner: But a bit of a ragged look, a little bit.

Chris Miano: It does, yeah.

Lincoln Brunner: I mean it's not ragged, but it's got more of an industrial look, yeah.

Chris Miano: Yeah, and it just speaks to that industry. And other people can do it, but you're not going to sell a 40 kilowatt plate laser and not visit that customer after you just train them because they didn't follow a few procedures that are very important. I mean, you bring that power to the game with rusty material, you're going to have to walk them through it. You're going to have to service that, you're going to have to applications, follow-ups and things like that. So we're ready for that. We're ready to scale up. We've built the systems in the last year and a half. I mean, it's a bold claim. I mean, we're not trying to knock plasma. We love plasma, but it's really a choice that people got to realize. So we're in it. The vibe is good. People are seeing the light based off the applications, and obviously hearing about people in their industry success stories. We've got a few handfuls of those where they're like, yep, we're in the same boat. And now we did this, and we think our ROI is going to be less than a year. And the results are astounding in certain thicknesses especially. So it's kind of the wild west on that regard.

Lincoln Brunner: Absolutely. It's interesting to hear you talk about that because a lot of people are, to use a Southernism, cottoning onto the idea of lasers being much more affordable and much more capable than they thought they were, especially in 3D. And my publication, Tube & Pipe Journal, going back to what you were talking about before about design. I mean, I guess if you want to call it a complaint of some of the manufacturers, a lot of parts that could be designed for tube aren't being designed for tube because people aren't understanding the capabilities of 3D lasers. And so my question for Chaz is, has the acquisition of a 3D laser begun to change the way you think about design when it comes to some of the parts that you do?

Chaz Schroeder: Absolutely. I think every time we bring on a new piece of equipment or a new process right away, we're looking at how can we integrate this into our current designs? Can we go back and look at those designs and shave value engineer based off of some of these new techniques or processes that we've brought in? And I think that's another reason that we look at bringing on new processes is how can we streamline what we're currently doing? And at the time that we were doing a lot of wood, we were majority wood manufacturing, when we started to get back into metal fabrication, we realized that from a sub-frame standpoint, we can get a lot more strength out of some of these sheet metal parts to allow us to get rid of some of the wood parts, bring down our overall costs, give us a lighter, more stream looking display. So integrating those two things together has really been kind of a game-changer for us throughout the history of our company. And understanding that, we're looking at how can we take the flat sheet capabilities, how can we take the 3D two-bladed capabilities and integrate that in a more successful way into our current designs?

Lincoln Brunner: Absolutely. And also it seems like with the lasers and the control and software systems available with them now, it seems like it just opens up a whole new horizon for not only design, but also the type of customers you can go after.

Chaz Schroeder: Absolutely. I think early on in the display company, they were hand drafting stuff initially. So when we got to the point where we had really jumped into the 3D space, and the software we use Inventor Infusion, it was such a huge evolution for us. Because you can basically model up what you're going after and you pretty much know if it's going to work or not before you even cut the first piece of sheet metal.

Lincoln Brunner: Before prototype.

Chaz Schroeder: Right.

Lincoln Brunner: Yeah.

Chaz Schroeder: So I mean, that helped a lot. And that really sped up even the prototyping process. And like I mentioned earlier, most of our clients, they want a prototype like now. They're not so much worried about the production, but that prototype, in a lot of cases, is being needed by them quickly so that they can sell their customers.

Lincoln Brunner: Ah, yes, right.

Chaz Schroeder: So having that ability to quick turn those prototypes and the benefits that software has brought to us to cut down that lead time has been very valuable.

Lincoln Brunner: Very cool.

Dan Davis: So being located in Mansfield, there's a rich manufacturing history there. Do you have success in finding workers who want to join the company, or do you have to look a little extra hard because you maybe look for people who can do multiple things?

Chaz Schroeder: Sure. Yeah, I mean, I think in the last few years, specifically, maybe a year or two leading up to COVID and after, finding skilled people has definitely been tough. The other thing is, since we're a smaller company, a lot of us wear multiple hats. So if you, let's say we need a welder, we bring a welder in. If we're slow in the weld shop, maybe we'll put them over in the wood shop. A lot of guys don't want to do that. So trying to find people who are flexible enough to be okay with moving around and doing some stuff that's maybe out of their comfort zone has been a little bit of a challenge. At the moment we have a really good crew in there. Where it goes from here, it's hard to say. I'm hoping to see a shift in education back to the trades. Because I think-

Lincoln Brunner: I think we're seeing it.

Chaz Schroeder: We are, but I also think that a lot of the younger generations, they want to be the next YouTube or TikTok star.

Dan Davis: Yeah.

Chaz Schroeder: So I think having-

Dan Davis: Host their own podcast.

Lincoln Brunner: What an idiotic idea.

Chaz Schroeder: Having those educational resources out there that are teaching this younger generation about some of this more advanced CNC technology, automation AI, and how it integrates into manufacturing, I think that's going to be an important resource moving forward to continue to grow our space.

Chris Miano: Yeah.

Lincoln Brunner: You see that happening Chris?

Chris Miano: Yeah. Definitely, yeah. I mean, there's obviously a shortage of the skilled trades or the trades that are like a welder, a monotonous weld. So obviously robotics and the flexibility and vision in robotics, like welding, assembly, the 3D software was the catalyst. Or the ability to see everything in 3D and then machines that make accurate enough parts to where you don't have to run this and run that, go back to the drawing board and come back. It is what it is.

Lincoln Brunner: Right. And the convertibility of step files is really very handy for a lot of people too.

Chris Miano: Definitely.

Chaz Schroeder: Absolutely.

Chris Miano: Definitely to trade between softwares because there's so many options out there.

Lincoln Brunner: Right.

Chris Miano: And yeah, I mean that evolution as well as the evolution in... Or I mean, bottom line, if you're in a custom world that's not high-run widgets that China's really good at or other areas, Mexico or whatever, to be competitive in the U.S., it seems like you got to be able to shift and pivot. And that's the key to finding the right stream- Or at least a more profitable for your time stream, not as competitive. And we're seeing that, the machinery has vision. There's a little bit coming through with AI that's going to allow feedback with that vision on welding. And I mean, laser welding is making its push because there's a lot of reasons why that's beneficial. And some industries don't realize it yet until it's really proven. But that's what we're seeing. People don't want to replace welders or workers or they want to-

Dan Davis: Right.. They need that experience.

Chris Miano: Right. they need that experience. They're very valuable and there's such a shortage. So it's like, how do I maximize their efficiency is everybody's key. And the kids coming out of school, I mean, they could do things on the phone, on the computer, on the software that we never even dreamed of, and they're just talented at that. So the vibe from everybody is, yeah, we're finding people that like machinery, like to get more out of the machinery.

Lincoln Brunner: That's cool.

Chris Miano: So they're seeing, they implement robotics and they're actually hiring more people because they're more efficient.

Lincoln Brunner: Wow, great.

Chris Miano: I had a good quote from one of our steel building manufacturers in Texas, and the guy's cool as heck, and he said, "We're not trying to replace welders, we're just trying to weld when there aren't welders."

Lincoln Brunner: That's a really good-

Chris Miano: And I mean, there are multiple robotic systems that have their nuances, but they've figured out what they do well, and that employee works with it instead of against it because at first they work against it. Comes in, it's like it's threatening my existence. And then they realize it's a tool. And then when they collaborate with it, 3, 4X, productivity comes out of it. And now this company is more profitable and it's better, the turnaround times are better.

Lincoln Brunner: Fantastic.

Chris Miano: And the product is affordable, and there's more of it. So I think that's the future of how we're going to deal with AI and just being competitive just by using the tools for what they are and understanding them.

Lincoln Brunner: That's cool. Yeah.

Dan Davis: Yeah. Chaz, that's a good question for you. Being that your business is not all contract and the volumes aren't high, do you see your company, if it hasn't already, looking at automation any type of way?

Chaz Schroeder: Yeah, I think so. We've been, especially on the welding side, very interested in lately in maybe integrating a cobot. And to Chris's point, that ability to be flexible, number one, and to be able to supplement almost multiplying a guy's work efforts through that integration of an automated cobot is something that I think is going to be something that we try to integrate here fairly soon.

Lincoln Brunner: Right. And the streamlining, the efficiencies is available to people who know how to use this well, it's already coming through. We're running a couple articles in the next issue about that. It's not just for large manufacturers who can afford to throw lots of money at machinery. It's for shops that maybe need one, but they need to make the most of the people that they have.

Chaz Schroeder: Exactly.

Lincoln Brunner: And not bang their head against the wall trying to find 10 more skilled welders when you've got this machine that could help them.

Chaz Schroeder: Exactly, yeah.

Dan Davis: Well, thanks for joining us today, fellas. It was a great conversation.

Chaz Schroeder: We appreciate the opportunity.

Chris Miano: Thank you.

Lincoln Brunner: It was fantastic.

Dan Davis: It was great. Gareth you got anything? He's all ready to go. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode. Once again, thanks to X-Series. Great conversation. Chaz, thanks for coming back, Chris, thanks.

Chaz Schroeder: Thank you.

Chris Miano: Appreciate you guys.

Chaz Schroeder: And if you have any comments, complaints, criticisms, fan letters, what else do we want to comment on?

Lincoln Brunner: Please. Oh, all righty.

Dan Davis: Send it to podcast at fmamfg.org. Thank you and goodbye.

Sara Spring: The Fabricator Podcast is a production of Fabricators and Manufacturers Association located in Elgin, Illinois. The show is hosted by Dan Davis and the staff of FMA Communications. The podcast is produced by Gareth Sleger, and recorded and edited with the help of Brandon Geier. Sale support provided by Andy Flando. Additional production support by Elizabeth Gavin, Dana Wiker, Mary Diamond, Mike Owens, and me Sara Spring. Thank you for listening.

ABOUT THE FABRICATOR PODCAST

The Fabricator Podcast brings you conversations with people in manufacturing who make things out of metal. We speak with manufacturers, metal fabricators, welders, job shop owners, small business entrepreneurs, artists, marketers, educators, and more. Host Dan Davis also goes beyond discussing just manufacturing and the skilled trades, and chats about pop culture, current events, food, music, movies, comedy, and, of course, robots. The Fabricator Podcast is presented by the Fabricators and Manufacturers Association.

We shape the conversation around metal.

Host: Dan Davis

Producer/Editor: Gareth Sleger

Video Producer/Editor: Brandon Geier/Dana Wiker

Ad writer/spokesperson/social media: Sara Spring

Graphics: Billy Kulpa

Marketing support: Elizabeth Gavin, Pat Simon

Sales support: Andy Flando, Amy Hudson

Web support: Mike Owens, Jared Carlow

Additional support: Ed Youdell, Maurine Semevolos, Lincoln Brunner, Tim Heston, Rafael Guerrero, Josh Welton, Darla Welton, Amanda Carlson-Hicks, Callie Check, Rick Lehnhardt, Judy Steinbach.

Where to listen to The Fabricator Podcast:

• Spotify
• Apple
• YouTube Music
• Amazon
• Audible
• Pandora

Follow The Fabricator:

• YouTube
• Facebook
• Instagram
• LinkedIn
• Twitter